LIKE US ON FACEBOOK

These Women Who Think They Don’t Need Feminism Don’t Know What Feminism Is

6 months ago

...

RYOT POINTS

Screen Shot 2014-07-22 at 9.14.14 AM

All photos: Facebook/Women Against Feminism

The internet is weird sometimes. These days, I try to keep my online activity to a minimum. I generally stick to academic articles, the Beyoncé version of 2048, and pictures of food on Yelp.

But every so often, I’ll see something that I find so ridiculous that the little flame in my belly — usually set on simmer — heats up to high.

The most recent arsonist is a Tumblr called Women against Feminism which I first saw featured on Buzzfeed. The website, as the name suggests, is an antifeminist site that suggests that feminists wish to be victimized and that rape culture is a myth.

On the site, there are many photos of women holding up cards explaining why they don’t support what they see as an unnecessary, misandrist (man-hating) revolution.

think

But did these posters ever think to look up the actual definition of feminism?

girl doesn't need feminism 2 ugh

Just a reminder to the lovely ladies whose portraits are featured on the site, feminism is the belief that people of all genders are equal, and should be treated thusly.

If you don’t trust me, the Oxford dictionary provides a more thorough definition: “The advocacy of women’s rights on the grounds of political, social, and economic equality to men.”

weak

On much of the site, many posters express that they have never been victims of oppression. Under a heading like “Why I am against feminism,” the author ties her grievances to the applications of feminism that they currently see in society. She might write that women and men already have equal rights and that feminists are always trying to “punish” men and give themselves “special privileges.”

By “special privileges,” does the author mean being able to speak out about sexual harassment in the workplace without fear? And by “punishment,” does the author mean stricter legal action about rape on college campuses?

girl doesn't need feminism 4

Another bullet point explains that the patriarchy does not exist. If it did, the author writes, then women would not be able to “vote, divorce, go to college, have a career, etc.”

This is flawed thinking. While in the U.S. and much of the “Western” world, women are not legally barred from any of these things, many women across the world do not have access to these things. Thus, the author’s issues with feminism clearly lie in the Western world, and can’t be applied across the board.

chivalry

On the site, the authors don’t provide any statistical evidence or data to back up their findings. Perhaps if a little research was done about the recent Hobby Lobby decision that allows companies to restrict women’s access to birth control based on religious reasons, the ongoing debate over abortion, and the startling number of sexual assault cases where the perpetrator is allowed to walk free, they might reconsider their claims that we live in an already equal society.

Instead, it seems that the majority of posts seem to come from interactions and subsequent disagreement with Tumblr feminists. And it seems that the posters take issue most with the way feminism has played out in the Western world, a place that they believe protects the rights of both men and women equally.

victims

As a self-proclaimed feminist, I cannot help but see the flaws in their logic. The patriarchy is alive and well, and it is a double-edged sword.

It may restrict women from freedoms in some places and not others. Patriarchal mindsets affect not just women but also men. It creates a culture of insecure and anxious people who constantly feel the need to defend and prove themselves, their actions, the ways they chose to live life.

anthony

These women may claim that they don’t need feminism, but the rest of us know we do — and I’ll politely add that I think these women are mistaken.

We live in a culture where we applaud men for “teaching” women they’re pretty in popular songs, where a person’s integrity is questioned if they report being raped, where women of color and transwomen are more likely to be murdered than any other group in the United States. These are good enough selling points for me.

So..

40 Things Only Internet Feminists Will Understand

What about you? Do you need feminism?

Leave a comment to start a friendly debate.

RYOT NOTE from Lillian

Regardless of the terminology we use, the fact remains that women all over the world are still discriminated against and face injustices every day. RYOT’S #OperationGirl is raising money to empower women by investing in girls’ education. Click the action box to find out how you can get involved, and share this story to Become the News!

CLICK HERE TO TAKE ACTION

Tagged:

equality feminism gender inequality tumblr womens rights
LIKE US ON FACEBOOK
164 comments
angrymonkeys54
angrymonkeys54

Perhaps this needs a bit of context. Why I don't need feminism is a Tumblr site. And Tumblr feminists do tend to perpetuate a victim complex, shame anybody who disagrees with them, talk about how dreadfully oppressive modern Western society is to women, display hatred toward men, view male sexual interest as demeaning and objectifying, talk about how it's alright to attack men because of "male privilege," blame "the Patriarchy" for their own lack of initiative, and otherwise act like the worst stereotypes of feminism. In fact, it's good that you brought up the mistreatment of women in the East and Middle East, because the Tumblrfeminists sure as hell didn't. No, Tumblrfeminists are the ones who raged when a man wore a shirt with scantily clad women on it. Every single thing on those cards is absolutely true, and can be justified by looking at feminists on Tumblr. Let's examine some of these claims, shall we?

Claim: "I don't need feminism because I like it when men compliment my body."

Support:"'It's a compliment' is something men say when they've been found verbally assaulting you. Don't buy into it, ladies."

Source: http://askatotalstranger.tumblr.com/post/85741511984/its-a-compliment-is-something-men-say-when

Claim: "I don't need feminism because I respect men."

Support:"Rules for men being in a feminist movement. 1) Shut up and listen. 2) Ask me, don't tell me. 3) Prepare to be wrong. 4) Call fellow men out on problematic behavior. 5) Never dismiss the lived experiences of women. 6) Prepare to be wrong. 

Source:http://femblr.tumblr.com/

Claim: "I don't need feminism because I don't think being a woman is a disadvantage."

Support: This article says as much, really, but here's a quote for you: "We applaud men for 'teaching' women they're pretty in popular songs, where a person's integrity is questioned if they report being raped..." 

Source: this page

Claim: "I don't need feminism because I don't want to demonize men."

Support: "The most terrifying gift that the Internet has given us is that it's shown how men honestly perceive the world: as a place where women exist exclusively for their sexual pleasure." Note that she's talking about the Youtube comments section, and if you judge humanity by THAT, then we're all fucked.

Source: http://maleprivilege.tumblr.com/ 

Claim: "I don't need feminism because I don't want to oppress men"/"I don't need feminism because I don't want to be a victim of society."

Support: Rules for men in mixed sex/race/orientation discussions. "1) Assume you don't have the right to be in the room or express your opinion. Chances are, many of the women in the circle don't. If you don't either, you won't be placing yourself above them.  2) Assume that the women in the room do have a right to be there, and their opinions are worth hearing."

Source: http://radtransfem.tumblr.com/post/24818439850/first-attempt-at-a-list-of-ways-for-men-to-use

So, the kind of feminist these women are striking out against, the Tumblrfeminist, is indeed a man-hating, self-victimizing, Girl Power, screaming hairy-legged feminists. That's just the way the Internet works. If it's any comfort, there are a lot of anti-feminist Tumblrs as well, but these tend to be reactionary, striking against the radical feminism espoused there. Tumblr is known across the Internet for being a bastion of this sort of thing, to the point where other Internet feminists complain about them giving the movement a bad name.

KimberlyVSteele
KimberlyVSteele

She's Samara.  She kills you if you watch her haunted videotape.  That's why she doesn't need feminism.

KimberlyVSteele
KimberlyVSteele

She doesn't need feminism because magic tractor beam vagina!  

DianeKokotisLizzol
DianeKokotisLizzol

Feminism means different things to different people. But those speaking against it are generalizing all feminists to have the same beliefs and perspectives just as people generalize all Muslims to be terrorists and all Christians to be heathens. THATS NOT FAIR!

THE FEMINIST MOVEMENT helped the USA to be the great nations that it is.

THE FEMINIST MOVEMENT RESULTED IN:

1. A 40 hr work week with over time pay and minimum wage laws that benefited men, women, children and families.

2. Child labor laws that set a minimum age for work. Your great grandparents were working at 6 years old before feminists fought against this.

3. Safer working conditions allowing women to wear pants and cut their hair. Imagine not being allowed to participate in sports because you we're not allowed to wear pants.

4. Equal opportunities for work and education. 150 years ago women we're not allowed to be school teachers or doctors.

5. The right to vote...oh my...it has taken us close to 100 years to have a female run for a presidential campaign in this nation. Meanwhile England and Spain has had a queen rule their empire hundreds of years ago. Ladies who speak against female politicians might as well give up on being moms because mothers raise up the next generation of me.

6. Equal rights between men and women. Feminism has benefited men on the job and in legal matters.

7. Feminists started antislavery campaigns in this country.

8. First lady Abigail Adams, advocated for educating girls and free speech.

9. Feminists fought for laws that protect children who are victimized through incest, domestic violence etc. Any women who has a problem with that obviously lacks compassion. This is not about man hating. Its about protecting children from any adult man and woman.

10. Feminists fought for birth control and abortions. And there are feminists who fight for pro life. So you can't categorize all feminists as bad or good Apple's. All I can say is that it's pretty nice to have the right to choose to have sex or not. Marry or not. Use protection or not. Birth control is certainly less of a "sin" then getting illegal abortions that are dangerous.

11. Feminism resulted in a freer nation where You can choose to walk the streets with your head covered and skirt flowing on the floor or have your thighs And cleavage showing. Imagine being sent home from school for wearing pants on a snowing freezing day.

12. Feminism has brought to attention all the great women in world history who have impacted large empires. Women like Queen Isabella of Spain, Cleopatra of Egypt, Esther from the Bible, Mary the Mother of Jesus, Princess Diana of England just to name a few.

LADIES AND GENTLEMEN FEMINISM IS NOT A SCARY CONCEPT.

FEMINISM WAS NOT INTENDED TO BRING ON THE BATTLE OF THE SEXES. ITS ABOUT MAKING THIS WORLD A BETTER PLACE WITH EQUAL OPPORTUNITIES AND RIGHTS FOR ALL.

Please ladies....if you love your sons and daughters teach them how to respect all people.

Hmm h,f,

HollyEH
HollyEH

I'm so dissapointed to hear the slew of negativity presumably from women. I truly value your article. I think most of these women have very fortunately not encountered the negative effects of inequality. When you want to push yourself to be something better or achieve your dreams (like anyone) it is hard. When a woman begins to push herself to do things besides get married and have babies the opposition quietly mounts in subtle ways...

These are all based on fact and statistical evidence, not feeling.

- climbing the corporate latter (look at pay scale differences between men and women in the same jobs. Look at the differences between top level jobs- so few held by women. )

- owning your own business - in my industry (one where women are supposedly "more qualified" because we're "relational/communicators" - only 3%of marketing agencies were owned by women until this year!

- let's look at day to day living - 80% + of rapes are done by men, but yet men aren't trained to be leaders and to rape less - we focus on educating women - don't go out at night, protect yourself! We say. A college professor asked the women in class what they do to prevent being raped, and they responded with 10 different things they do on any given night when going out to prevent such a tragedy. Ask a man (truly) and he won't have 1 thing he does to change his behavior to prevent being raped.

- let's look at murders - 2/3 of ALL women murdered in this country are murdered by partners or ex partners

- let's look at the vote. When black men got the right to vote in the 1800's they also got a constitutional amendment that states they must be treated equally. When women got the right to vote decades later, their equality amendment was DENIED. that's right. And not just once. It was put to congress every year for the next ~ 80 years. EVERY YEAR. It uses the same language but states gender equality. It has been denied EVERY YEAR since 1920. (Www.VoteERA.org)

So. Who thinks we don't need someone to fight for women's rights?

Anonymouse1991
Anonymouse1991

Here’s the thing though, you are operating on the dictionary definition of feminism, which claims to want equal rights for both genders. In practice, I see very little “equality” being fought for. I used to consider myself a feminist, and I am well versed in what the movement claims to be about. Then I met other feminists who told me my choice to be a teacher, mother, and wife are wrong… if I was really about equal rights, I would be in a male dominated field, like engineering. I began seeing the “don’t be that guy” ad campaigns (http://www.theviolencestopshere.ca/dbtg.php) which urge men to stop rape while ignoring that women also commit rape. I looked deeper into sexual assault laws and domestic violence laws, which heavily favour women. I watched my brother-in-law arrested for defending himself against his girlfriend (who later tried to run him over with her car). I was there when a friend of mine was not allowed to be present at the birth of his son, because it “stressed her out.” I watched women beating their husbands and being lauded as heroes by passersby on telvision (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PZdddlzA2e4). I read about the only men’s shelter in Canada, which feminists fought to shut down. I looked deeper into the soundbytes like the “1 in 5 women will be sexually assaulted” and found them to be deeply flawed. I attended a seminar about domestic violence, which admitted the statistic they had (90% of DV being male-female) was inaccurate, then continued using “woman” instead of “victim” throughout the 3 hour presentation. I saw men being mocked and ridiculed by feminists for admitting they’d been raped. I saw this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iARHCxAMAO0 And after all this, I stopped buying into feminism.

I consider myself to be an equalist, also known as an egalitarian. The movement I’ve chosen is the same as many on the womenagainstfeminism tumblr have. Like “dictionary feminism,” equalism also believes in equal rights for men and women, but the approach is different. Feminism does not hold a monopoly on equality.

Believe in what you will, I’m not here to tell you you’re wrong. I just wanted to spread some light on what these women and I see, and to point out that actions speak louder than words.



Read more: http://www.gurl.com/2014/07/14/reasons-women-dont-need-feminism/#ixzz3DHJ6xa48

MidareBenten
MidareBenten

Egalitarianism is the movement of those that want true equality, nowadays feminist sound as if they had some sort of personal agenda to put women in charge.

Also, I'm pretty sure these women are against the now well known "tumblr feminism", which is far from what feminism used to aim for. Because of the pseudo feminists, many things are being ruined for everyone instead of being fixed. 

I'm a woman, I don't need someone to tell me rape it's wrong, I know this, and these new feminist seem to ignore women are not the only victims of rape. I don't need someone to tell me someone earning less money than other it's wrong, I know it's wrong, if both are doing the same job, and one is getting less money, regardless of their gender it's wrong. I don't need someone to tell me gender stereotypes in media and games are wrong... yet we see male stereotypes ALL the time, but nowadays feminist whine about it.

Yes, feminism is not needed, egalitarianism it's needed.

AmyDDavis
AmyDDavis

No its not just empowering woman. Its about defending " femininity". Feminist does not mean woman. It comes from the word Feminine. Femininity is found in both genders, and IS most often seen as the weaker gender. Most men have trouble dealing with their egos, suppressing anything about themselves that might come off as being a "pussy". Its not healthy for either gender to have to suppress those qualities, and neither is it healthy to discriminate either gender for this quality.  Because of feminism and like minded individuals there is being a further push for strong female lead characters in Hollywood( by the way, believe it or not, many chick flicks were actually written or directed by men). Dont forget, Feminism is actually something quite new, we still have grandmothers and grandfathers who lived in a time where they couldnt vote or sign a document or work, had equal pay, or able to become a member of congress or any other political figure. Its not over yet, and feminism is here to stay until the job is done ALL OVER THE WORLD.

kolbenito
kolbenito

Actually, there is already a movement for equal rights. It is called Egalitarianism. It has the socially viable distinction of being gender neutral. Feminism is, most of the time, a Women vs. Men discussion. 


Quite honestly most of what I read from Feminists is just "me too" man hating, lamenting they aren't on equal footing to the most powerful men (few are) and general griping. 

RapLordPita
RapLordPita

i am combating feminism for many of these reasons because feminism no longer (if it ever did) upholds gender equality. feminism has moved from womens rights to a revolution which seeks to make women social equals to men. That has long since happened. Women are EMPOWERED. 33% more women acquire degrees than men. So i don't see the need for further equality. Women are not rape victims as frequent as children! Rape has been given attention because of feminism but feminists arent active in child sex trafficking! At this point, it is a farce. Gender equality should be made just that. Gender equality.

MakedaTheGreat
MakedaTheGreat

I don't need feminism because honestly, if a guy was walking around naked he'd be arrested yet its supposed to be legal for women to do it? Men get raped, yet you do nothing for that? Some of us women are perfectly happy here, yet you do nothing for the girls being raped in India? Sweetheart, stop using the word feminism and use the word Equalism instead, before I start taking any of you seriously okay? Kisses. <3

MeZ_
MeZ_

Operationgirl is fantastic. Tackling the problem head on instead of just blaming men . the problem for feminists is that a big number of modern feminists have been quoted saying misanderist things in print or shouting them in protests, or protesting men's support groups etc. Because in their minds they think it helps to vilify men and create an enemy to rally against. But womenagaisntfeminism proves that not all women will by "collected" by the whole bigger enemy spiel that armies the world over gave been using to recruit young men for centuries. It is to young women's credit that it has stopped working with women so quickly.

AL102
AL102

You look like you're about 18 amber, what do you know about over 25 year olds?

AL102
AL102

Then maybe you'd prefer to have mens problems instead. Either way you're going to have problems. The difference is that men don't constantly complain about it in public.

If it's about teaching boys not to treat girls like doodoo, why are the topics raised by feminists about everything else but child raising.

I'm almost 60 and I've seen 40 years of putting men down. I see women making alliances with other "victim" who have together made the white christian male into some kind of demon.

My father told me before he died that it's a shame a man can't even help a kid thats fallen off of a bicycle without feeling like a child molester. 

In most of this country a man who gets a divorce is treated like a criminal by the courts that take the woman's  side in nearly issue that arises.

I see men being held in jail on baseless accusations by women who regret having had sex with him, and therefore retroactively call it rape.

It's time for women to take responsibility for their behavior and accept that they cannot have it all.

How could anyone expect men to continue treating women like queens when they now compete with him for a seat in the classroom and a decent job, not even on a level playing field, but on one skewed heavily in their favor.

Women seem to be completely oblivious to what they have done to men by deciding to turn society on it's head and relegate men to what? What are these men that get bumped out of an education and a job while they simultaneously only respect or deem worthy men who earn more money than they do?

What are men supposed to do now that women have taken men's breadwinner role? Make dinner?

And what did men receive from women in return for what has been taken from them? Nothing but the same expectations as before and expecting men to open doors for them as before.

They want authority and cash while they still cannot take responsibility for their own behavior and march endlessly for more choices and less responsibility for their own sex while mandating more and more responsibility for men.

Sorry but this cannot continue endlessly. Women who keep supporting this path are going to be very unhappy indeed, as many surveys have shown.



AmberLoewenthal
AmberLoewenthal

Most of these girls look like they are under 25 and have probably not yet had to join the working world. I'm sure they have yet to experience being with mostly men and having them ignore your ideas because they think you are a stupid girl. I'm sure those compliments about your body wouldn't feel so good to you if you have ever experienced walking alone at night and passing a group of men you don't know, aggressively catcalling you.  Feminism isn't about giving women more perks, its about teaching our children not to grow up to treat women like doodoo.  We need feminism because there is still a part of society that wants nothing from a woman but her body.  Women are so smart, creative, intuitive, and the world could do so much better if those traits were nurtured rather than ignored.

jacobr4d
jacobr4d

It's funny how pro-life women are sooo much better looking than feminists (read leftists).

angrymonkeys54
angrymonkeys54

But of course, the article itself is problematic. Let's look at the assertions displayed within.

You: "Did these posters ever think to look up the actual definition of feminism?"

Me: We just went over this. They're actually advocating gender equality, which by your standard would make them more feminist than those who rant about "patriarchy" and "privilege."

You:By “special privileges,” does the author mean being able to speak out about sexual harassment in the workplace without fear? And by “punishment,” does the author mean stricter legal action about rape on college campuses?

Me: Oh, you aren't familiar with Tumblr feminists at all, are you? No, "special privileges" means that men in feminist movements are to be considered inferior, as outlined in the above quotes, and don't get into rape at all. They think of virtually any form of uninvited sexual contact, sometimes up to and including just LOOKING at a woman the wrong way, to be rape. This is self-justifying, of course. As the definition of rape is expanded, more rape therefore occurs, which meansthat there is a rape epidemic, and so we need to come up with new definitions of rape so as to properly punish this crime. It doesn't help that some feminists claim that taking precautionary measures against rape is sexist, saying that it is up to the rapist whether or not a rape occurs. This creates a vicious cycle where the feminist essentially creates her own problem, and wonders why it won't go away.

You: ''This is flawed thinking. While in the U.S. and much of the “Western” world, women are not legally barred from any of these things, many women across the world do not have access to these things. Thus, the author’s issues with feminism clearly lie in the Western world, and can’t be applied across the board.''

Me: Exactly. You seem to be equating the sort of "microaggressions" and "male privilege" that these SJW's complain about with the treatment of women in Muslim countries, or something like that. Because women are oppressed in some places, however, does not mean that every woman is oppressed equally, and that every woman "needs feminism." That seems to be the point here, that the women in question are given the same rights and privileges as men, and so dislike being treated as if they were Taliban victims. Let's face it, how many African village women use Tumblr.

You:"On the site, the authors don’t provide any statistical evidence or data to back up their findings."

Me: And you do? All you say is that women are oppressed, and therefore we can't speak against even the more extreme feminists.

You: "Perhaps if a little research was done about the recent Hobby Lobby decision that allows companies to restrict women’s access to birth control based on religious reasons"

Me: If a store is privately owned, the owners can work their own beliefs into the store policy. Look at the disagreement between Chick-Fil-a and homosexuals. Anyway, are you suggesting that because some people have beliefs that don't match yours, you are oppressed? That is the exact sort of attitude the Why-I-don't-need-feminism people are complaining about.

You: "the ongoing debate over abortion"

Me: Are you really going to go there? Obviously not, since you just suggested that the fact that abortion is controversial is oppressive to women, and totally justifies the existence of Tumblrfeminism. No explanation for that, I see.

You: "and the startling number of sexual assault cases where the perpetrator is allowed to walk free"

Me: I'm not saying there isn't a problem with this, but the reason why it is so difficult to convict someone of sexual assault is that it is difficult to prove that the sex was nonconsensual. After all, if you say that you didn't consent, and someone else says that you did, it's your word against theirs. If you tried to remedy that, than anyone accused of sexual assault could be convicted, even without proof.

You: "Instead, it seems that the majority of posts seem to come from interactions and subsequent disagreement with Tumblr feminists. And it seems that the posters take issue most with the way feminism has played out in the Western world, a place that they believe protects the rights of both men and women equally."

Me: Yes! Thank you! These people are saying that this particular brand of rabid neo-liberalism, offense-taking, and self-victimization isn't really necessary in a Western, civilized, First-world society. They're not saying that you shouldn't help women in Yemen or something, but if a woman is stoned to death under Sharia law, that is NOT your excuse to start attacking men halfway across the world, and you can't extrapolate it to a totally different culture.

You: "As a self-proclaimed feminist, I cannot help but see the flaws in their logic. The patriarchy is alive and well, and it is a double-edged sword.

It may restrict women from freedoms in some places and not others. Patriarchal mindsets affect not just women but also men. It creates a culture of insecure and anxious people who constantly feel the need to defend and prove themselves, their actions, the ways they chose to live life."

Me: So you're basically doing what the protestors hate. You're saying that anyone who doesn't share your views is brainwashed and misguided. This is the hallmark of a radical, paranoid belief system; this idea that it's so impossible for any reasonable person to disagree with you that those who don't share your views are either plotting against you, or have been brainwashed into noncompliance with your narrow viewpoint. As Socrates once said, that's bullshit. It is possible for people to disagree with you without working against you or being manipulated into disagreeing. For a corresponding example of this perspective in action, look at the work of Jack Chick, a Christian fundamentalist with no particular denomination that I'm aware of. In his stories, a person tries to convert other people to Christianity. Unfortunately, invisible demons are secretly using various people as mouthpieces to harass him and turn the people they're influencing from Christ. The similarity with your beliefs is the idea that those who resist you known damn well that you're right, just as those demons knew that Jesus was real. They're just doing it out of spite. This might explain the hateful attitude of some feminists, who assume that anyone who disagrees with them is willfully evil, or blind to the truth.

You: "We live in a culture where we applaud men for 'teaching' women they’re pretty in popular songs"

Me: Again, this is you expecting everyone to conform to your ideals, and declaring yourself to be oppressed when they don't. You can't expect every songwriter to honor your version of feminism. And please don't try and equate "offensive" song lyrics with things like stoning and genital mutilation, which were your previous reasons for needing feminism. In fact, when you have to resort to "microaggressions" to play the victim, then you really lose any chance of being seen as oppressed.

You: "where a person’s integrity is questioned if they report being raped"

Me: This is one of those times where it would be nice to source your claims.

So, to sum up, these are annoying Tumblr people protesting against even more annoying Tumblr people, and you feel the need to extrapolate this Internet argument to all of society, making yourself look kind of stupid.

NicholasMcDonald
NicholasMcDonald

@HollyEH I do agree there has been a fair amount of oppression. But I do not think it is because women are women. I do not think it is because of gender. I think it is because many women voluntarily/involuntarily decide to be weak. They crack under pressure. They get very emotional. They cannot handle high-pressure situations. Women who are strong are well respected by men and make equal amounts. Now, let me stop for a moment and remind whoever is reading this that men can be weak too. It is just that many women are often raised to be agreeable homemakers while men are raised to be competitive business-men. Most often, women are not built for competition. But whose fault is this? Don't blame men. That becomes victim mentality. That is basically admitting your weakness. And weakness is an equally unacceptable excuse as is oppression. Weak women choose to not rise against oppression. The same is true for weak men. Weak men get paid less than strong men. It all comes down to competition, not gender. What weak people really want is for strong people to be less hard on them. They want them to be less competitive. That is a weak person's attempt to win at a competition. It is a "guilt-trip". It is being "manipulative". But the nature of competition is the stronger person wins. If women grew to be stronger than men then they would be making more money. Plain and simple. Yes, I definitely agree we should teach boys to respect women, but that doesn't mean we should teach boys to surrender to women in competition. That is sexist. That is putting women before men. But teaching boys to respect women does not guarantee that they will respect women. My question for women is, and I would ask a man this too, "what are you doing to earn respect for yourself? What are you doing to ensure you can win in competitions? What are you doing to ensure you don't become a victim?"

Mauve
Mauve

@Anonymouse1991 Some people are going to be really extreme and other people aren't. The point is, you have to take the very idea of feminism as it is and not judge it based on the ideas of individuals.

DaeInaworldwithoutwalls
DaeInaworldwithoutwalls

@Anonymouse1991 while I do find your Arguments about how Society Gives a Pass over to women who assault men to hold some Virtue it's important for me as  a Male to remember that just because I can do something doesn't mean I should. I've been what the law considers "assaulted" by women before but Quiet frankly One incident was Serious and the other was just soemthing done to me for making a Risque joke at Her expense that I just wore as a badge of honor. Oh you got slapped? WIN.

But seriously Your bias against the Whole "Don't be that guy campaign" is misguided at best.


Quiet frankly the rebuttal's we've seen to it so far say that "correlation i not causation" that might be true but if you're going to make that argument you ought to spend some time reflecting on what causation could be instead, rule of thumb, if you can't think of another obvious causation factor, it probably Is causation it's just that you your Evidentiary standrd to have something "proven" to you is ridicolously high. Most Spurious correlation's are pretty obvious to spot, a lot of them are hillarious.


This isn't one of them. There's -good- reason to believe they're linked. Because you have no other Theory to explain the data.


My point is this: http://freethoughtblogs.com/greta/2013/01/08/rape-prevention-aimed-at-rapists-does-work/


it reduced the number of rapes in edmonton by 10 percent when it was put into effect. What is your issue wtih he campaign precisely? that they can't prove correlation is causation? If that offends you so much  maybe you should do some reflection on WHAT ELSE CAusATION could POSSIBLY Be. 

MoTaintignies
MoTaintignies

Nobody said walking around naked should be legalized.

And you do realize you are fighting over a WORD, right? Maybe if everyone had the same -and the right- definition of the word you wouldn't be wasting your time. That is the ideas of the movement that should be discussed, not the name. Feminism is supporting women in order to get to complete equality. And it is not only supporting women ; feminists are just as concerned by sexual assaults done on men, for example.

peace_love
peace_love

@MakedaTheGreat Your comment about nudity is illogical and unfounded. Can you provide information about that claim? Also, feminists are against anyone being sexually assaulted, regardless of gender. Feminists care about men and women being raped and are working to ensure that the rights of victims are upheld. Feminists also work for the protection of women's rights worldwide. Women are being oppressed in the US and in other countries, all of these issues are being discussed and addressed by feminists. Please do your research and educate yourself before making ignorant blanket statements! 

letsthinkaboutthis
letsthinkaboutthis

@MeZ_ I am a modern feminist. So is my husband. So are our sons. Modern feminism has nothing to do with misandery. It's all about respect and equality for both genders. 


It appears as if the founders of Women Against Feminism have been very successful in inciting hatred of some women towards others.  

Loganalan88
Loganalan88

You don't understand feminism. Feminists don't expect to be treated like queens and don't care if someone holds the door open for them or not. It's not that big of a deal. And how are women taking being the bread winner from men? Men and women can share that role now, and many men are happy to be stay at home parents just like some women. There's nothing wrong with that. Cite one real life case of a woman regretting sex with a man and trying to claim it was rape. What happens much more often is: a woman gets raped, then when she tried to bring her rapist to justice she is judged and humiliated and held responsible for the rapist's actions. And last time I checked feminists didn't claim all men are rapists or child molesters either. You're attacking a straw man of what you believe feminism to be.

MinnieMangafas
MinnieMangafas

@AL102 I don't think so. I'm pretty happy being a free person, knowing that I can work, make my own money and be independent. if you don't like the fact that women are also breadwinners, it sounds like you're the one who's going to be unhappy. Sincerely, a very self-fulfilled feminist. 

NicholasMcDonald
NicholasMcDonald

@AmberLoewenthal People act the way they act because of experience. If men in a workplace thought you were stupid because you were a woman, that would mean they have been around many women that act stupid. In that case, it is just as much their fault for making generalizations as it is for those previous women in their life being stupid. So, in other words, don't just blame men. Blame any stupid girls they have encountered for making a bad impression on women. People base their ideas on people in their experiences with similar people, so if a man has had several encounters with stupid women he may be inclined to believe most women are stupid. I do agree we should teach sensitivity, but that would also imply women should focus on ensuring other women don't act stupid. This is not just a gender problem. This is a problem with generalizations, but at the same time we as people form generalizations to protect ourselves. Getting rid of generalizations all together would be like asking people to not protect themselves. It isn't going to happen. Plus, like I said, generalizations are just used to protect oneself; therefore, a person will realize another person does not fall into the stereotype if he or she proves he or she does not. Getting angry at other people and criticizing them about their preconceptions just proves their preconceptions to be true. If people want other people to change their preconceptions about other people they need to start acting differently. They need to act respectful. That means not being unnecessarily critical and demanding by force. People will drop their negative preconceptions when surrounded by positive actions for a prolonged amount of time, and people will hold on to their negative preconceptions when surrounded by negative actions. Plus, like I said in another response, men don't disregard what women say because they are women. They disregard what women say because women allow men to disregard what they say. Again, not a gender issue. There are several men who allow other men to disregard what they say too. Sure, like I said earlier, we should put focus on sensitivity training. But 1) that will not completely stop rape and sexual harassment and 2) there will always be jerks in the workplace that try to discount another person via their weaknesses. Also, we shouldn't teach kids to just give in to other people's ideas out of pity for them. I do not think it would be wise for an employer to disregard what men say so that could pay more attention to what women say because 1) it would be out of pity and 2) we should make decisions based on the efficiency of an idea. The next problem, though, is that many managers rely on subject matter experts to make decisions. Many managers do not know the answer so they ask the workers. And managers are always going to go with the person seems most confident with their information. If a man discounts a woman's idea and she doesn't come back with any rebuttal then that is going to make her look like she is not as confident in her information as the man is. So, as you can see, it is not a gender issue.

engineer1998
engineer1998

@AmberLoewenthal  I agree with you, I am a degreed Engineer and have been ignored and the advice of a non Engineer male has been requested and trusted over my own.  We had the same answer and yet it was not believed when the educated individual weighed in because they were female.

Anna153
Anna153

@jacobr4d its funny how you find the way they look as a more important factor to consider than their opinions and the reasons behind it.

Anonymouse1991
Anonymouse1991

@Mauve @Anonymouse1991 You're right, I have not judged the movement based on the theory behind it. I judged it on the actions of the individuals who consider themselves feminists. You may call them extremists, but where were the moderate feminists when the Duluth Model became part of the law? Or when Primary Aggressor Policies are enforced? Or when people like Lillian Kalish demean and condescend to young women rather than LISTENING to what they have to say? 


Movements, like feminism, SHOULD be judged on the actions of those in the movement. And when the more moderate feminists allow the extremists to act negatively in the name of feminism without so much as a "Hey, I think there's a better way to handle this situation..." it reflects just as badly on those moderates. 


Also, if you insist I should judge feminism based on IDEALS rather than ACTIONS, how about these. These are the ideals of feminism as they're being taught in gender studies classes across North America: 


"To call a man an animal is to flatter him; he’s a machine, a walking dildo." 
— Valerie Solanas, Authoress of the SCUM Manifesto


"I want to see a man beaten to a bloody pulp with a high-heel shoved in his mouth, like an apple in the mouth of a pig." — Andrea Dworkin


"The proportion of men must be reduced to and maintained at approximately 10% of the human race." — Sally Miller Gearhart, in The Future - If There Is One - Is Female


"Men who are unjustly accused of rape can sometimes gain from the experience." - Catherine Comins


"If life is to survive on this planet, there must be a decontamination of the Earth. I think this will be accompanied by an evolutionary process that will result in a drastic reduction of the population of males." —Mary Daly, former Professor at Boston College, 2001


"I believe that women have a capacity for understanding and compassion which man structurally does not have, does not have it because he cannot have it. He’s just incapable of it."
— Barbara Jordan; Former Congresswoman




danmurphey1956
danmurphey1956

@KaradinArt @RapLordPita What degrees are they getting though? Over-represented in the humanities (I'm a guy with an humanities degree, surprisingly not been handed my CEO position yet!), under-represented in STEM.

gracesimply
gracesimply

@peace_love @MakedaTheGreat Curious how the nudity comment is illogical and unfounded?  I get that we aren't talking about actual full-on nudity which Makeda The Great didn't clearly point out, (as a woman would certainly be reprimanded as a man would for complete nudity) - but why is it that a woman can go topless as a means of protest against oppression while a man wearing ass-less chaps would certainly be reprimanded for indecent exposure in some way shape or form.


That IS a double standard and as a woman I DON'T feel oppressed by the top I wear.


Fair enough though that Makeda's statement was a bit of a blanket statement but I wouldn't go as far as to say it were ignorant.  There is a HUGE difference in the level of oppression women face in North America versus other countries and this article we are commenting on highlights the issues of Feminism in a place such as our own.


I'm 100% with Makeda on this one in that it should be labelled Equalism versus Feminism as modern Feminism is not what it used be and has sadly taken a turn for the worst.  More people are arguing about what it is then the topics we are trying to address.


So before you tell someone to do their research and educate themselves maybe you should.  Take a look at the definition of Feminism, what it was in the past, and what it has become.  It is no longer as simple as the definition states.  We are all on the same team - man and woman... so why not call it Equalism?


And calling someone ignorant is rude.  Maybe Makeda has done her research and this is the conclusion they have come to.  Which thus makes you ignorant as you are coming to a conclusion without all of the facts... does it not?


ig·no·rantˈignərənt/adjective

  1. lacking knowledge or awareness in general; uneducated or unsophisticated."he was told constantly that he was ignorant and stupid"synonyms:uneducated, unknowledgeable, untaughtunschooleduntutored,untrainedilliterateunletteredunlearnedunreaduninformed,unenlightenedbenightedMore
    • lacking knowledge, information, or awareness about something in particular."they were ignorant of astronomy"synonyms:without knowledge of, unaware of, unconscious of, oblivious to,incognizant of, unfamiliar with, unacquainted with, uninformed about, ill-informed about, unenlightened about, unconversant with, inexperienced in/with, naive about, green about; More
    • informaldiscourteous or rude."this ignorant, pin-brained receptionist"

gracesimply
gracesimply

@letsthinkaboutthis @MeZ_ While I am certainly not in full agreement with a lot of the things that are written on Women Against Feminism by any means... I do relate to the message that is being portrayed.  There are people who feel we don't require Feminism and that it is doing more harm then good.  And as Feminists have an opportunity to speak their minds so should their  opposition without being accused of ''inciting hatred'.  While your family may practice a healthy form of Feminism, society as a whole right now is not.


I've been looked down upon (or received 'hatred) by Feminists for not completely agreeing with the movement and I do see myself as an Equalist.  The hatred goes both ways and has nothing to do with being Feminist or Anti.  The founders did not cause this so called 'hatred' they merely provided a platform for another point of view, which is obviously shared by a lot of people.

augurae
augurae

@letsthinkaboutthis @MeZ_ So you are the typical dangerous "liberal" family that would vote for a modern Hitler in a whim if the media told you to?

Anonymouse1991
Anonymouse1991

@Loganalan88 Could have fooled me... have you even seen #killallmen?


Or are those just not the "real" feminists?

NicholasMcDonald
NicholasMcDonald

@AmberLoewenthal Also, another issue is that some women throw a fit when they don't get their way. They call men jerks, etc. They get emotional. Basically, they act like poor sports and pretty much give off the impression that they cannot handle disappointment. Nobody wants to listen to someone that throws fits and gets emotional over business decisions. If these women want to be respected they need to stop throwing fits every time they don't get their way. Instead, these women need to accept when they don't get their way and not throw a fit, start calling people names, and playing the blame game.

NicholasMcDonald
NicholasMcDonald

@engineer1998 @AmberLoewenthal It is not because you are female. It is because you let another person overshadow you. The same thing you mentioned happens between same sex people all the time. They went with what he said because he apparently asserted himself more than you did. You may say, "well, if I would have asserted myself he probably would have used some feminine quality to discount me." But same sex people do the same thing with non-gender qualities. A male could discount another male based on him having lower test scores. A woman could discount another woman for the same reasons or other reasons. It is a power move. A "winner" is clever and can defend him or herself in power struggles. What you mentioned is you losing in a power struggle. It has nothing to do with your gender. If you want to make more money and be listened to more often then you need to make them want to listen to you. That means you need to work on your game.

MeZ_
MeZ_

@Anna153. No. What is funny is that feminists apparently fight to give women a voice and then tell them what they s

Are saying is stupid. And you vilify men for doing that yourselves. But the unalterable point is that lots of prominent feminists have made man hating statements so they have a point about egalitarianism. A man tipped acid on a woman causing cosmetic damage only ( in Europe ) and he got 10 years jail and she got 1.8 million in compensation. A women tipped acid on a man who dumped her and massively disfigured him, and blinded him. She will get off with no jail time, a suspended sentence and he got no compensation at all. In what way is that a fair outcome for gender? I will stand against anyone that isn't actually for egalitarianism. I suggest most thinking people do the same

Anonymouse1991
Anonymouse1991

@DaeInaworldwithoutwalls, First, just because you do not consider the second assault to be a serious incident should not give the woman a pass. If you don't want to press charges, that's your choice, but I worry that you and others see her actions as acceptable. Even when you've lost an argument, society as a whole cannot rely on slapping your opponent to make your point...


Regarding the "Don't be that guy" campaign, my issue is not with it's effectiveness, but it's secondary message. 


I believe the campaign was effective in defining exactly WHAT constitutes consent, and therefore prevented many from doing things that they now know is considered "rape" (and quite honestly, should have already known, but that's another issue entirely...)



However, have you considered whether the campaign would have been any less effective if they'd included a poster or two featuring a female villain? Every single one released featured a man assaulting a woman. If women want to be seen as equals, we need to start taking accountability for their actions. This includes admitting that women can, and do, commit sexual assault.


My problem is not with the result, but I feel that they could have been more effective if they'd targeted ALL potential rapists, not just 50% of them. 



And just for anyone who wants to debate that last statistic: http://dontneedfeminism.tumblr.com/post/71296815223/40-empirical-studies-that-demonstrate-that-it-is-not (Yes, I know the link itself is biased, but the author cites all his sources and they should be easy to find if anyone cares to look).

Anonymouse1991
Anonymouse1991

@danmurphey1956 @deleted_61546765_KaradinArt @RapLordPita That might have something to do with women's interests though, rather than any "patriarchy" telling us what field we should go into. Honestly, the only people who have shamed me for getting my degree in early childhood education (a field I am passionate about because I love how children learn and express their knowledge, not because kids are cute) are feminists, BECAUSE women are under-represented in STEM field.


Many places offer special grants and assistance to encourage women to move into STEM, and they're still at a low male;female ratio because most women WANT to be in the humanities.

Loganalan88
Loganalan88

That's a neat little immature ad hominem attack augurae. Next time try saying something of substance instead of tearing someone down.

Loganalan88
Loganalan88

Of course, a few feminists made misandrist statements so ALL feminists must be bad. What a logical argument. And I'm pretty sure most feminists would not be okay with a wife disfiguring her husband. Once again, judging all feminists by the actions of a few and using straw men.

AL102
AL102

@MeZ_ What is really telling about the feminist movement is that when the equal rights amendment's passage seemed almost inevitable, women's groups stopped supporting it, and in fact undermined it so that it failed to be passed. Lots of under the table arm twisting occurred.

Was it Phillis Schafly? Not sure, but it was a prominent conservative woman who pointed out to NOW that if equal rights passed, women would lose all of their "privileges.

Interesting that a women openly noted that women would lose all of their privileges back in the 60 and 70's when women were supposedly still being "oppressed".

On a side note, I took my son to his college orientation and they had a photo of the first class to graduate with their 4 year degree, 6 out of 8 of the graduating class were women, that was 1889.

Also, were you aware that the first women to receive her MD degree in this country earned it that same year?

Women kept themselves back, men were not keeping them down. They were afraid to disobey their parents and pursue their dreams. It was not society that kept them down, it was their own hesitation to disobey their parents. I, as a man felt obligated to obey my parents too, does that mean I was a suffragette too? Today's kids don't have that problem.


Anonymouse1991
Anonymouse1991

@Loganalan88 The problem I have is that rather than calling out the feminists who make these misandrist statements, every feminist I've ever met simply yells "Not all feminists!" 


I'm not denying that there are feminists out there that truly believe men and women are equal. Christina Hoff Sommers, for example. Their voices are drawn out, however, by the voices of the womyn shrieking about school dress codes being oppressive and making jokes about male rape victims. 


If feminism wants to maintain it's credibility, feminists need to spend more time policing its own movement. Stop teaching the works of Andrea Dworkin and other misandrists in gender studies classes. Criticize the "male tears" mugs and t-shirts. Support organizations that support male victims of DV, rather than ignoring the protests getting them shut down.


It's not a straw man anymore when nearly ALL the prominent feminist voices support misandry over equality.These are the people leading your movement.

Loganalan88
Loganalan88

Yeah, men have never, ever restricted the rights of women (like the right to vote) or held them down in any way ever.

keiffer520
keiffer520

Almost 100 years ago women gained the right to vote. Companies generally have a policy for giving raises in pay to protect themselves from such accusations as giving more money to men. If the man has been employed longer he makes more if the woman has been there longer she makes more. What job field are women unable to get into based on sex? Only one I have found in my many different jobs was women couldn't have was in combat with the army. Even that is changing. Soon a 120 pound woman will be able to wear 60 pounds of gear and be in a situation where she may need to carry a 250 pound man and his 60 pounds of gear out of a fight to save both their lives. I am not saying that like its a bad thing either if she knows weekday she is getting into and accepts the task. Just saying there are women ceos, priests, and everything else. Sometimes they do the job better sometimes they don't. It isn't a sex thing it's on the individual. A motivated person generally gets what they are after, so maybe rather than have men and women fighting over feminism and equal rights which are already in place we need to focus on laziness that has consumed us.

NicholasMcDonald
NicholasMcDonald

@keiffer520 Totally agreed. It is not a gender issue. It is a personal issue. Women need to stop blaming their gender for not getting ahead in life. Just like minorities need to stop blaming the color of their skin for not getting ahead in life. A person gets ahead in life by making the right decisions and taking responsibility, not by acting like a victim. Several minorities say the cannot find a job, but I don't see them actively going to the library and learning new skills. I don't see them using the Internet at the library to learn new skills. Instead they sit around and whine about how the world is wronging them, not taking advantage of the opportunities to better themselves.

Anonymouse1991
Anonymouse1991

@keiffer520 Just to add: It's actually illegal to pay one person less than another for ANY reason, including gender. A woman who can prove that there is a legitimate wage gap (not explained by fewer hours worked, time off, or seniority) can take legal action against their employer.

As far as women in combat, the military's physical requirements for enlisted women is actually significantly lower than the physical requirements for their male counterparts. Women interested in enlisting in the military actually have an easier time getting in (at least in the Canadian military, but my understanding is that the US is similar in that). The same is true for many police and fire departments...

keiffer520
keiffer520

The physical requirements for women in the military is lower here too. More time to complete their run, need less push ups and sit ups also. Some women lime the men try to do the minimum to meet the standards and others go far above and beyond. In any situation I have come across if a man or woman succeeds or fails it is more a matter of motivation and preparation than what their gender is

These Women Who Think They Don’t Need Feminism Don’t Know What Feminism Is

-- display nothing --